Saints need to back up tough talk

Basingstoke Gazette: Ralph Krueger Ralph Krueger

THE words tumbled out of Les Reed’s mouth as he addressed the media last month at Saints’ Staplewood training ground.

Only a few weeks ago, on April 25 to be precise, Reed remarked: “No club has been given permission to talk to any of our players and that will remain so.

“As far as the policy is concerned, we have had a great season, we want to build on that season, we want to improve the squad going forward, we want to retain the players we’ve got.

“They are all contracted, they all have existing contracts and we intend to honour those contracts.

“Any enquiries we get will probably be met with a ‘no, not for sale.’ “Our intention is to keep this very good team together and build on it by bringing in players to improve upon it.

“We want to keep all of our best players here at the club and build on that for the future.”

They are quotes impossible to take out of context, and taken at face value sent out a strong message to any clubs weighing up bids for prize assets Luke Shaw and Adam Lallana.

We are not a selling club, Reed was stating.

We want to keep our best players.

We will not let our players talk to any club interested in signing them.

That was what Reed was saying.

He wasn’t suggesting it, he was saying it.

There have not been too many public statements by Saints directors in recent months, but Reed was only singing from the same song sheet as chairman Ralph Krueger and director Hans Hofstetter.

“We are definitely not factoring in a big player sale.”

Those are the words Krueger spoke last month.

A few weeks earlier, Hofstetter insisted: “We do not need to sell any player Mauricio wants to keep.”

These were all big statements to make, and now is the time when Saints fans are anxiously hoping they do not end up as hollow words ... sentences to beat the people who made them with.

With big money bids on the table for both Shaw and Lallana – £27m and £20m from Manchester United and Liverpool respectively – now is the time for those men to back their statements up with firm action.

If they were serious when they uttered those words printed above, then Saints have to reject the bids for their two prize assets.

That they haven’t done so publicly yet is worrying.

There is a World Cup on the horizon and the pair’s market value could rise sharply with good performances in Brazil.

If Shaw or Lallana were to have a ‘Michael Owen v Argentina 1998’ moment, then millions would be added to their price tags overnight.

I wrote in last Saturday’s Daily Echo that Saints would be sending out totally the wrong messages if they sold any World Cup bound player prior to the tournament in Brazil starting. That has not changed.

Of course, we have to live in the real world here.

For all Reed’s comments about honouring contracts, he knows modern day football makes that virtually impossible.

It was ever thus.

“Ultimately, it will be the player who decides if he wants to go.”

That was the comment made by then Saints chairman Rupert Lowe in July 2003 on receiving Wayne Bridge’s transfer request.

Bridge put in the request as he was keen to join the Roman Abramovich-funded revolution that had just started at Chelsea.

The fact the England international left back had three years left on his contract was irrelevant.

It is the same now at St Mary’s.

Lallana and Shaw both have four years left on their current Saints contracts, taking them through to the next World Cup.

But it is possible both could have left the club prior to the forthcoming World Cup starting, let alone the one in 2018.

Reed was wrong to talk about honouring contracts because if the player(s) concerned really want to go – and there is a club willing to pay a lot of money to sign them – then they will go.

Again, it was ever thus.

Eleven years ago, Chelsea were willing to pay £7m for Bridge, at the time a lot of money for a left back.

Now Manchester United are happy to pay £20m more than for a Saints left back with senior England experience.

The footballing landscape has not changed that much down the years.

Danny Wallace left Saints for Old Trafford in 1989 because he saw United as a bigger club giving him a better chance of winning trophies, even though Saints were on course for a top seven finish themselves at the end of 89/90.

He was right, going on to collect FA Cup and European Cup Winners Cup medals.

Bridge left because he saw Chelsea as a better chance of winning trophies and playing European club football.

He was right, too.

There is a footballing hierarchy and Saints are high up in it.

But however well they have done this season – and they have done very well indeed – they still cannot offer Champions League football.

They still cannot pay the huge salaries that clubs will far bigger financial resources can offer.

At the moment, we want to believe Les Reed.

We want to believe Ralph Krueger. If he was not factoring in a big money sale, no need to make one (or two) then.

We want to believe Saints will turn down all offers for their stars.

Certainly before the World Cup begins.

There must be a healthy dose of realism in all this, however.

Manchester United and Liverpool are two of the biggest clubs in the world.

Not many players reject them.

And if Lallana and Shaw find the lure irresistible – and could anyone really blame them for going? – then it is up to Krueger and the board to get the best deal possible for Saints.

The chairman said last Sunday that any decisions taken this summer would be in the “best interests of the Saints”.

If he is true to his word, that means no players being sold until after the World Cup finishes.

Roy Hodgson might not like that. The players might not like that. Agents might not like that.

Tough.

Ralph Krueger is employed by Saints to get the best deals for the club.

And a ‘best deal’ is not selling the crown jewels within days of a transfer window opening and a World Cup on the horizon.

Comments (47)

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8:24am Wed 14 May 14

costa gaz says...

If saints are serious about becoming one of England's top clubs then selling our finest to teams that are supposed to be our rivals is not going to be the way to do it.

Top clubs pay high wages and high transfer fees, they rarely sell their best players to rivals. obviously there are exceptions but the general is ...do not help your rivals get even stronger whilst making our own team weaker.

This summer will tell us a lot about our club.
If saints are serious about becoming one of England's top clubs then selling our finest to teams that are supposed to be our rivals is not going to be the way to do it. Top clubs pay high wages and high transfer fees, they rarely sell their best players to rivals. obviously there are exceptions but the general is ...do not help your rivals get even stronger whilst making our own team weaker. This summer will tell us a lot about our club. costa gaz
  • Score: 43

8:26am Wed 14 May 14

redandy10 says...

The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin! redandy10
  • Score: -4

8:29am Wed 14 May 14

andoru says...

Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain went to a 'bigger' club too. Look how that worked out. Ironically, they'd have won more with Saints (the JPT) ...
Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain went to a 'bigger' club too. Look how that worked out. Ironically, they'd have won more with Saints (the JPT) ... andoru
  • Score: 22

8:35am Wed 14 May 14

redandy10 says...

Si, you're lucky that there's no thumbs down button available for your article, because non-blinkered thinking doesn't go down too well on here. What next, the Easter Bunny doesn't exist?

Excellent piece Cater! A+
Si, you're lucky that there's no thumbs down button available for your article, because non-blinkered thinking doesn't go down too well on here. What next, the Easter Bunny doesn't exist? Excellent piece Cater! A+ redandy10
  • Score: 1

8:37am Wed 14 May 14

Clever Dick says...

He aso said:-
"any enquiries we get will probably be met with a no not for sale"
Probably not definitely. So there is a get out there as well All players have a value and if we ask silly money and get it there is then a valid business reason for selling.
He aso said:- "any enquiries we get will probably be met with a no not for sale" Probably not definitely. So there is a get out there as well All players have a value and if we ask silly money and get it there is then a valid business reason for selling. Clever Dick
  • Score: -1

8:38am Wed 14 May 14

costa gaz says...

redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
[quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them. costa gaz
  • Score: 15

8:39am Wed 14 May 14

BracknellSaint says...

Is he saying that the Manure and Liverpool offers are official and confirmed then??? Because I was under the impression they were just RUMOURED to have bid? Has anyone seen anything official to back up the claims? Genuinely interested.
Is he saying that the Manure and Liverpool offers are official and confirmed then??? Because I was under the impression they were just RUMOURED to have bid? Has anyone seen anything official to back up the claims? Genuinely interested. BracknellSaint
  • Score: 7

8:52am Wed 14 May 14

redandy10 says...

costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Exactly!
And players joining bigger clubs is part and parcel of football, which occurs everyday. How blinkered does a fan have to be not to acknowledge that?
[quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Exactly! And players joining bigger clubs is part and parcel of football, which occurs everyday. How blinkered does a fan have to be not to acknowledge that? redandy10
  • Score: 8

9:04am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
[quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well. Saint Jinx
  • Score: 4

9:05am Wed 14 May 14

Alicesdad says...

“We are definitely not factoring in a big player sale.”

Now we shall see.

You can ramble on all day about this. Nobody who has a relevant voice has siad anything that alters Reeds earleir answers.

I wonder.. is there a bookie who will take a bet that everything stays as it is with MoPo, Lallana and Shaw all staying put? Thought not.

.. and why doesn't the Echo actually put up a headline saying there is no firm evidence to suggest otherwise. Because apart from the known interest from Liverpool for Adam there are no facts to support any other suggestions whatsoever !!
“We are definitely not factoring in a big player sale.” Now we shall see. You can ramble on all day about this. Nobody who has a relevant voice has siad anything that alters Reeds earleir answers. I wonder.. is there a bookie who will take a bet that everything stays as it is with MoPo, Lallana and Shaw all staying put? Thought not. .. and why doesn't the Echo actually put up a headline saying there is no firm evidence to suggest otherwise. Because apart from the known interest from Liverpool for Adam there are no facts to support any other suggestions whatsoever !! Alicesdad
  • Score: 11

9:05am Wed 14 May 14

settheSTandard says...

Shouldn't we all just calm down until we have facts rather than supposition . The people demanding action from the board are the same people who say the players wield all the power.
Shouldn't we all just calm down until we have facts rather than supposition . The people demanding action from the board are the same people who say the players wield all the power. settheSTandard
  • Score: 8

9:10am Wed 14 May 14

redandy10 says...

See Si, some of them just aren't responsive to common sense. If anything it usually only invites wild bouts of aggressive behaviour, becoming of a Stepford Wife.

Your piece today feels like when a fireman would come to school to warn all of the pupils of the dangers of fire. Thanks for pouring everybody a tall glass of reality Simon.

Thank you Mr Carter for coming in and telling us the realities of modern day football.
Now children, thank the nice man.
THANK YOU MR CARTER!!!
See Si, some of them just aren't responsive to common sense. If anything it usually only invites wild bouts of aggressive behaviour, becoming of a Stepford Wife. Your piece today feels like when a fireman would come to school to warn all of the pupils of the dangers of fire. Thanks for pouring everybody a tall glass of reality Simon. Thank you Mr Carter for coming in and telling us the realities of modern day football. Now children, thank the nice man. THANK YOU MR CARTER!!! redandy10
  • Score: -5

9:18am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

This was a very good article and I agree with everything he says.

We are in a situation that could be described as “unique” because Saints have never been in a better position or “age-old” insofar as other clubs have dared to encroach upon the status quo and failed.

We are the new kids on the block, but to gain “control” we have to fight a well-established hierarchy. So what does this hierarchy of 4 or 5 big clubs have that knocks back the likes of Southampton time and time again? History. Prestige. Big money. Press control. Player pulling power. Invisible people in the background ready and able to swat away any upstart like a fly.

So what can we do? Most neutral people I have spoken to, who are not Saints fans, would really love a team like Southampton to make it. The Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea lot of course will be singing the same old song. “If you want to win anything, come to us”. It gets boring! I know that I am being idealistic and naïve, but I believe that the fever pitch speculation we have seen over the last few weeks is disgusting and inherently wrong. They say there are always rumours but this has become ridiculous. We have been stitched up good and proper.

The fans of these “big” clubs readily accept that they are reaping the benefit of past glories, but who wouldn't I suppose. However, having said all this, Manchester City - who have a certain prestige, but nothing like Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool - have managed to put a decent team together and break the oligopoly. So is it really all about money? I thought, naively, that, with billionaire owners, money would be the least of our problems. Nicola Cortese probably did as well. So is this about the Liebherrs having second thoughts about ploughing in millions or is their empire not as secure as we thought. Time will tell.
This was a very good article and I agree with everything he says. We are in a situation that could be described as “unique” because Saints have never been in a better position or “age-old” insofar as other clubs have dared to encroach upon the status quo and failed. We are the new kids on the block, but to gain “control” we have to fight a well-established hierarchy. So what does this hierarchy of 4 or 5 big clubs have that knocks back the likes of Southampton time and time again? History. Prestige. Big money. Press control. Player pulling power. Invisible people in the background ready and able to swat away any upstart like a fly. So what can we do? Most neutral people I have spoken to, who are not Saints fans, would really love a team like Southampton to make it. The Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea lot of course will be singing the same old song. “If you want to win anything, come to us”. It gets boring! I know that I am being idealistic and naïve, but I believe that the fever pitch speculation we have seen over the last few weeks is disgusting and inherently wrong. They say there are always rumours but this has become ridiculous. We have been stitched up good and proper. The fans of these “big” clubs readily accept that they are reaping the benefit of past glories, but who wouldn't I suppose. However, having said all this, Manchester City - who have a certain prestige, but nothing like Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool - have managed to put a decent team together and break the oligopoly. So is it really all about money? I thought, naively, that, with billionaire owners, money would be the least of our problems. Nicola Cortese probably did as well. So is this about the Liebherrs having second thoughts about ploughing in millions or is their empire not as secure as we thought. Time will tell. Saint Jinx
  • Score: 17

9:20am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
[quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well. Saint Jinx
  • Score: 11

9:24am Wed 14 May 14

milton road says...

Newsnow for what it is worth saif Liverpool were turned down saying that Saints wanted 37m for Lallana and Utd were turned down as well. Whether any truth in it like anything else I do not know.
Whilst a player can ask for a move it would have to be at a price the club want. It does not mean they have to accept just any bid.
Yet Sunday Adam said I don't see by any means my Saints career being over.
Shaw knows if he wants to go and it is if, then he can get CL football straight away
I still think if the board come out with a positive statement then everyone will stay. Re-address contract wages more in line with other top clubs.
I really do think the players and manager feel a loyalty to the club. Yet the board need to be outgoing and positive Everyone knew when they signed new contracts that it would take two or three seasons to challenge for Europe. Both Shaw and Lallana have been head hunted by big clubs before. I think they all ar4 prepared to give Saints a season but only if the baord come out positively.
Newsnow for what it is worth saif Liverpool were turned down saying that Saints wanted 37m for Lallana and Utd were turned down as well. Whether any truth in it like anything else I do not know. Whilst a player can ask for a move it would have to be at a price the club want. It does not mean they have to accept just any bid. Yet Sunday Adam said I don't see by any means my Saints career being over. Shaw knows if he wants to go and it is if, then he can get CL football straight away I still think if the board come out with a positive statement then everyone will stay. Re-address contract wages more in line with other top clubs. I really do think the players and manager feel a loyalty to the club. Yet the board need to be outgoing and positive Everyone knew when they signed new contracts that it would take two or three seasons to challenge for Europe. Both Shaw and Lallana have been head hunted by big clubs before. I think they all ar4 prepared to give Saints a season but only if the baord come out positively. milton road
  • Score: 13

9:27am Wed 14 May 14

montecristosaint says...

this beyond the dark days when the existence of Southampton football club was in jeopardy is the the most important and toughest summer in our history.Does the club now behave like a minnow and sell, or does it believe in its own propaganda and hold their players to their contracts while at the same investing in new players to assist the drive to the top.
This is where we are at. From the legal point of view no player can force the club to sell. And really if the club are true to their word, they will find the money for further player investment to satisfy Luke Adam and the others that it is worth staying. We need to remember that these are young men in relatively short careers, they want success. Can the club give them the means to achieve it? Yes they can, so long as Katarina buys into her father s dream for Southampton. All we can do is wait.And hope!!!
this beyond the dark days when the existence of Southampton football club was in jeopardy is the the most important and toughest summer in our history.Does the club now behave like a minnow and sell, or does it believe in its own propaganda and hold their players to their contracts while at the same investing in new players to assist the drive to the top. This is where we are at. From the legal point of view no player can force the club to sell. And really if the club are true to their word, they will find the money for further player investment to satisfy Luke Adam and the others that it is worth staying. We need to remember that these are young men in relatively short careers, they want success. Can the club give them the means to achieve it? Yes they can, so long as Katarina buys into her father s dream for Southampton. All we can do is wait.And hope!!! montecristosaint
  • Score: 16

9:30am Wed 14 May 14

costa gaz says...

Saint Jinx wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx.
It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job
[quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx. It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job costa gaz
  • Score: 7

9:35am Wed 14 May 14

Jesus_02 says...

redandy10 wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Exactly! And players joining bigger clubs is part and parcel of football, which occurs everyday. How blinkered does a fan have to be not to acknowledge that?
Its not about being blinkered tbh... Just because It has happened in the past doesnt mean that its part of Saints fututre.

There is always a point where the only sensible way forward is to sell a player. However in recent years we have offered enough ambition to retain players. In terms of players that we would want to keep we have only sold Oxlaid Chamberlain in the duration of the last 5 year plan.

The reason why people believe that Potechino, Shaw,Lallana, Sniederlin, Lovren, Chambers, Ray-Rod, Lambert all might just stay is because they retain the hope that our current board share the same ambition as Cortese and that the Players will have the same ambition.
[quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Exactly! And players joining bigger clubs is part and parcel of football, which occurs everyday. How blinkered does a fan have to be not to acknowledge that?[/p][/quote]Its not about being blinkered tbh... Just because It has happened in the past doesnt mean that its part of Saints fututre. There is always a point where the only sensible way forward is to sell a player. However in recent years we have offered enough ambition to retain players. In terms of players that we would want to keep we have only sold Oxlaid Chamberlain in the duration of the last 5 year plan. The reason why people believe that Potechino, Shaw,Lallana, Sniederlin, Lovren, Chambers, Ray-Rod, Lambert all might just stay is because they retain the hope that our current board share the same ambition as Cortese and that the Players will have the same ambition. Jesus_02
  • Score: 5

10:27am Wed 14 May 14

Chriops says...

With all the hype and rumour-mill in full flow, with half our first team and our manager apparently trying to work out how to use their calculators to add up their additional millions in wages, I thought that it was time for a little sensible reflection.

At times like these, as Saints fans we need to put our faith in our owner Katharina Liebher - the daughter of our saviour Marcus. We need to have faith that she has a desire to honour her fathers wishes.

As a Saints fan, all I have heard from the club is a clear message that they want to take Saints forward, to retain the players, and build a squad capable of continuing our recent progress. It's all very well saying take the money from the sale two or three of these players, but who do you buy? New players need time to settle.

Saints are currently at a crossroads. Go straight on, and they march towards their goal of European football. No there aren't any guarantees, but it is plausible. Start selling players, and that goal is at risk. Take Spurs for example, they were far more likely to gain CL footy had they retained Bale. Not only that, can you imagine how much their wage bill has risen? Not only that, it's clear that Spurs are a selling club!

Saints are on the verge of making that next step. However, the sale of our Captain, or the brightest young English star in recent times, or indeed the loss of our manager, would indicate that as a club, we are fundamentally a selling club. Kruger himself highlighted that commercially we need to become stronger, but to achieve this, we need success, not the sale of our international players!

When I look at the success that Liverpool have had this last season, it is clear to me that that success was largely achieved not on the training pitch, but in the Board Room, where they said Luis Suarez is not for sale.

Take note Katharina Liebher, Mr Kruger, Mr Reed. If you wish Saints to grow, and move to the next stage, then look no further than to yourselves.
With all the hype and rumour-mill in full flow, with half our first team and our manager apparently trying to work out how to use their calculators to add up their additional millions in wages, I thought that it was time for a little sensible reflection. At times like these, as Saints fans we need to put our faith in our owner Katharina Liebher - the daughter of our saviour Marcus. We need to have faith that she has a desire to honour her fathers wishes. As a Saints fan, all I have heard from the club is a clear message that they want to take Saints forward, to retain the players, and build a squad capable of continuing our recent progress. It's all very well saying take the money from the sale two or three of these players, but who do you buy? New players need time to settle. Saints are currently at a crossroads. Go straight on, and they march towards their goal of European football. No there aren't any guarantees, but it is plausible. Start selling players, and that goal is at risk. Take Spurs for example, they were far more likely to gain CL footy had they retained Bale. Not only that, can you imagine how much their wage bill has risen? Not only that, it's clear that Spurs are a selling club! Saints are on the verge of making that next step. However, the sale of our Captain, or the brightest young English star in recent times, or indeed the loss of our manager, would indicate that as a club, we are fundamentally a selling club. Kruger himself highlighted that commercially we need to become stronger, but to achieve this, we need success, not the sale of our international players! When I look at the success that Liverpool have had this last season, it is clear to me that that success was largely achieved not on the training pitch, but in the Board Room, where they said Luis Suarez is not for sale. Take note Katharina Liebher, Mr Kruger, Mr Reed. If you wish Saints to grow, and move to the next stage, then look no further than to yourselves. Chriops
  • Score: 16

10:33am Wed 14 May 14

st1halo says...

redandy10 wrote:
See Si, some of them just aren't responsive to common sense. If anything it usually only invites wild bouts of aggressive behaviour, becoming of a Stepford Wife.

Your piece today feels like when a fireman would come to school to warn all of the pupils of the dangers of fire. Thanks for pouring everybody a tall glass of reality Simon.

Thank you Mr Carter for coming in and telling us the realities of modern day football.
Now children, thank the nice man.
THANK YOU MR CARTER!!!
Incredibly patronising.
Liverpool and Suarez last season should demonstrate that clubs have as much power as they want to wield. Infact, to ensure the point of contracts, its imperative that players' wishes are last on the list otherwise contracts become an irrelevance. Imo, the transer window is no more than a game of poker o can walk away wth the spoils even if you have a sh1t hand. Liverpool played with a poker face and sent out a message to every player who has a contract with them. We should do the same.

STID
[quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: See Si, some of them just aren't responsive to common sense. If anything it usually only invites wild bouts of aggressive behaviour, becoming of a Stepford Wife. Your piece today feels like when a fireman would come to school to warn all of the pupils of the dangers of fire. Thanks for pouring everybody a tall glass of reality Simon. Thank you Mr Carter for coming in and telling us the realities of modern day football. Now children, thank the nice man. THANK YOU MR CARTER!!![/p][/quote]Incredibly patronising. Liverpool and Suarez last season should demonstrate that clubs have as much power as they want to wield. Infact, to ensure the point of contracts, its imperative that players' wishes are last on the list otherwise contracts become an irrelevance. Imo, the transer window is no more than a game of poker o can walk away wth the spoils even if you have a sh1t hand. Liverpool played with a poker face and sent out a message to every player who has a contract with them. We should do the same. STID st1halo
  • Score: 7

10:36am Wed 14 May 14

TheSaintsSoothsayer says...

Excellent article Simon.

Saints fans have to play the waiting game
Excellent article Simon. Saints fans have to play the waiting game TheSaintsSoothsayer
  • Score: 4

10:37am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

costa gaz wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx.
It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job
That is a bit strong.

I know that many people suffer but if you knew what I have been through this last year, then you would understand well and truly what the real world is.
Perhaps you were saying it sympathetically and I agree that one has to be cynical, but I believe that there is a place in society for these virtues.
[quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx. It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job[/p][/quote]That is a bit strong. I know that many people suffer but if you knew what I have been through this last year, then you would understand well and truly what the real world is. Perhaps you were saying it sympathetically and I agree that one has to be cynical, but I believe that there is a place in society for these virtues. Saint Jinx
  • Score: 2

10:39am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

costa gaz wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx.
It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job
Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world.

Okay.
[quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx. It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job[/p][/quote]Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world. Okay. Saint Jinx
  • Score: 2

10:58am Wed 14 May 14

Positively4thStreet says...

Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx.
It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job
Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world.

Okay.
Its true to say that "Loyalty and Decency" are two of the key words floating around in the drama that is currently unfolding at St.Mary's at the moment,unfortunately the words "Ambition and Business acumen" are also floating round in the mix as well,and as Nicola has ruthlessly shown in the past,all of those words don't always make comfortable bedfellows.
Whether the required ruthlessness will be shown by the current board,in order to maintain Saints current upward momentum remains to be seen,and we appear to be standing at a critical crossroads at this present moment.
[quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx. It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job[/p][/quote]Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world. Okay.[/p][/quote]Its true to say that "Loyalty and Decency" are two of the key words floating around in the drama that is currently unfolding at St.Mary's at the moment,unfortunately the words "Ambition and Business acumen" are also floating round in the mix as well,and as Nicola has ruthlessly shown in the past,all of those words don't always make comfortable bedfellows. Whether the required ruthlessness will be shown by the current board,in order to maintain Saints current upward momentum remains to be seen,and we appear to be standing at a critical crossroads at this present moment. Positively4thStreet
  • Score: 1

11:51am Wed 14 May 14

Saint Jinx says...

Positively4thStreet wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
Should read:

Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.
Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx.
It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job
Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world.

Okay.
Its true to say that "Loyalty and Decency" are two of the key words floating around in the drama that is currently unfolding at St.Mary's at the moment,unfortunately the words "Ambition and Business acumen" are also floating round in the mix as well,and as Nicola has ruthlessly shown in the past,all of those words don't always make comfortable bedfellows.
Whether the required ruthlessness will be shown by the current board,in order to maintain Saints current upward momentum remains to be seen,and we appear to be standing at a critical crossroads at this present moment.
Good comment!
[quote][p][bold]Positively4thStreet[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Should read: Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely have a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately not in the real world Jinx. It is, and always will be the fans who have loyalty, to most players/managers it is merely a job[/p][/quote]Oh I see, you were not saying that I am not in the real world. You were saying that these attributes actually don't exist in the real world. Okay.[/p][/quote]Its true to say that "Loyalty and Decency" are two of the key words floating around in the drama that is currently unfolding at St.Mary's at the moment,unfortunately the words "Ambition and Business acumen" are also floating round in the mix as well,and as Nicola has ruthlessly shown in the past,all of those words don't always make comfortable bedfellows. Whether the required ruthlessness will be shown by the current board,in order to maintain Saints current upward momentum remains to be seen,and we appear to be standing at a critical crossroads at this present moment.[/p][/quote]Good comment! Saint Jinx
  • Score: 0

12:00pm Wed 14 May 14

jls217 says...

I like this article and many of the ripostes to it.

It is generally agreed in football circles that the player and his agent decides whether a contract will be honoured or not. No arguments from me.

Here is the bargaining chip though - these players are both young and ambitious having just started their international careers. Wherever they go they will want to continue to feature in the first team - the same goes if they stay.

If I were manager I'd call their bluff. They would be told in no uncertain terms they are Saints players until 2018 and will play and train in the way a professional would be expected. Whilst they are under contract they will be loyal and obedient to Southampton FC. Or they can play out the next few seasons in the reserves and lose any chance of playing for their country. Or depending on how successful their world cup is they could stay on an improved contract until 2020.
I would make this offer and stick rigidly to it. I guarantee the player would blink the first time they saw a team sheet with their name missing and the player I'd bought in to replace them on it.
A win/win situation for the club as we would have two good classy players added to the squad no matter what the unhappy players decided. And we do need a quality 2nd left back anyway.
I would not put them out on load - they would just fester in the reserves until they realized who putting the bread and butter on the table for them.
No point telling me this cannot be done - it bloody well can, the only thing missing the courage of a manager's/chairman's convictions. The player and his agent WILL blink first.
I like this article and many of the ripostes to it. It is generally agreed in football circles that the player and his agent decides whether a contract will be honoured or not. No arguments from me. Here is the bargaining chip though - these players are both young and ambitious having just started their international careers. Wherever they go they will want to continue to feature in the first team - the same goes if they stay. If I were manager I'd call their bluff. They would be told in no uncertain terms they are Saints players until 2018 and will play and train in the way a professional would be expected. Whilst they are under contract they will be loyal and obedient to Southampton FC. Or they can play out the next few seasons in the reserves and lose any chance of playing for their country. Or depending on how successful their world cup is they could stay on an improved contract until 2020. I would make this offer and stick rigidly to it. I guarantee the player would blink the first time they saw a team sheet with their name missing and the player I'd bought in to replace them on it. A win/win situation for the club as we would have two good classy players added to the squad no matter what the unhappy players decided. And we do need a quality 2nd left back anyway. I would not put them out on load - they would just fester in the reserves until they realized who putting the bread and butter on the table for them. No point telling me this cannot be done - it bloody well can, the only thing missing the courage of a manager's/chairman's convictions. The player and his agent WILL blink first. jls217
  • Score: 5

2:13pm Wed 14 May 14

K in says...

Saints have come out and said the above things, Saints have said nothing contradictory since.

All that has been said since is being said by the media, the local press, national press, bbc and sky... so why don't the press remember the words spoken and just shut up?

I am getting mighty fed up that each time I switch on the tele, radio, surf the interweb or open a newspaper all I see and hear is that Saints are a selling club and NEED to sell players and how it is a given that our players and manager are all queuing at the door to exit the club. Luke Shaw had definitely signed for Chelsea a few weeks ago, now he's off to Manure, Lalana has definitely signed here there and everywhere etc BORING!

I am not stupid, I know that maybe some of our top players will go but maybe it will be because they want to NOT because Saints want them too... no one will know until 31st August when the window closes!!!
Saints have come out and said the above things, Saints have said nothing contradictory since. All that has been said since is being said by the media, the local press, national press, bbc and sky... so why don't the press remember the words spoken and just shut up? I am getting mighty fed up that each time I switch on the tele, radio, surf the interweb or open a newspaper all I see and hear is that Saints are a selling club and NEED to sell players and how it is a given that our players and manager are all queuing at the door to exit the club. Luke Shaw had definitely signed for Chelsea a few weeks ago, now he's off to Manure, Lalana has definitely signed here there and everywhere etc BORING! I am not stupid, I know that maybe some of our top players will go but maybe it will be because they want to NOT because Saints want them too... no one will know until 31st August when the window closes!!! K in
  • Score: 1

3:01pm Wed 14 May 14

alanrr says...

we can't just up their wages to match the top teams because we don't have the income from attendances to match them..........I hope and pray that our players are not totally motivated by money but want to play football too not sit on benches
we can't just up their wages to match the top teams because we don't have the income from attendances to match them..........I hope and pray that our players are not totally motivated by money but want to play football too not sit on benches alanrr
  • Score: 0

3:22pm Wed 14 May 14

jls217 says...

Saint Jinx wrote:
costa gaz wrote:
redandy10 wrote:
The headline to this piece is spot on!

The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place.

Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave.

Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can.

Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin!
Absolutely correct redandy..
Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying.
Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it.

Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.
Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.
In previous decades that may have been featured in the decision making process. LeGod was probably one of the last of that breed. Footbally is an increasingly mercilessly selfish business.
I remember an answer Matty gave to so a couple of questions on why he didn't go to the big cities and money. It went something like this. I come from the Channel Islands - to me Southampton is the big city. I get 14k wages how much more can I spend?
Brilliant answers.

Do not expect too much of that in football nowadays it's all a smash and grab raid.
[quote][p][bold]Saint Jinx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]costa gaz[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]redandy10[/bold] wrote: The headline to this piece is spot on! The big talk is enough for some fans, but for the non-rubes like myself we want to see actions. To have any chance of keeping our talent we need to demonstrate to them that big money will be available to Poch to strengthen the squad so we can compete for a European place. Les Reed speaking about keeping our talent used the word "want" not "will". So nobody will be able to call him a liar if Luke does leave. Well done Simon Carter for explaining to the wet behind the ears brigade that in football you CAN'T make a player honour his contract if he wants out. It's staggering that some posters on here believe that a club can. Si said "there must be a healthy dose of realism", which is exactly what I've been trying to get across to some of you. Now that Si has weighed in hopefully you'll listen to the man wearing the glasses with cheesy grin![/p][/quote]Absolutely correct redandy.. Some fans continue to bury their heads in the sand because they think that players/management would be better off staying. Players are no different to any of us, if a rival company wanted you and offered to treble your salary with a opportunity to play in the biggest sports competition in the world (CL) would you think twice about it. Until SFC can generate the sort of revenue brought in by the top 6 clubs we will never be able to compete with them.[/p][/quote]Loyalty, decency and respecting the dreams of those around you surely has a place in society as well.[/p][/quote]In previous decades that may have been featured in the decision making process. LeGod was probably one of the last of that breed. Footbally is an increasingly mercilessly selfish business. I remember an answer Matty gave to so a couple of questions on why he didn't go to the big cities and money. It went something like this. I come from the Channel Islands - to me Southampton is the big city. I get 14k wages how much more can I spend? Brilliant answers. Do not expect too much of that in football nowadays it's all a smash and grab raid. jls217
  • Score: 1

3:33pm Wed 14 May 14

Saintlee72 says...

So what the f*** is going on then? We all know if a huge offer comes in for any of our players then it only makes sense to take the money, especially if the player wants to go. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd be devastated if Lallana, Shaw or any of our top players were sold, or Spurs come in for MoPo - of course I don't want them to go but I've supported Saints for too long for us not to sell off the crown jewels as soon as a big club starts circling the good ship Southampton. We all know what's going to happen. It happens all the time at Saints.
What I can't work out why Les Reed would go in front of the media and tell them that none of our team is not for sale. Why say anything at all???
So what the f*** is going on then? We all know if a huge offer comes in for any of our players then it only makes sense to take the money, especially if the player wants to go. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd be devastated if Lallana, Shaw or any of our top players were sold, or Spurs come in for MoPo - of course I don't want them to go but I've supported Saints for too long for us not to sell off the crown jewels as soon as a big club starts circling the good ship Southampton. We all know what's going to happen. It happens all the time at Saints. What I can't work out why Les Reed would go in front of the media and tell them that none of our team is not for sale. Why say anything at all??? Saintlee72
  • Score: 0

3:44pm Wed 14 May 14

jls217 says...

Saintlee72 wrote:
So what the f*** is going on then? We all know if a huge offer comes in for any of our players then it only makes sense to take the money, especially if the player wants to go. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd be devastated if Lallana, Shaw or any of our top players were sold, or Spurs come in for MoPo - of course I don't want them to go but I've supported Saints for too long for us not to sell off the crown jewels as soon as a big club starts circling the good ship Southampton. We all know what's going to happen. It happens all the time at Saints.
What I can't work out why Les Reed would go in front of the media and tell them that none of our team is not for sale. Why say anything at all???
Because the club got fed up with people complaining that they are not getting any info on the state of play?

Because the club got fed up with continuous speculation based on nothing?

Because the club wanted to send out a clear message that the days when Saints sold all their crown jewels the first time a big cheque is offered are gone for ever (this doesn't mean that noone is ever for sale even the richest of clubs sells players to balance the books and the team - as we are now working our way to that status why should we be any different)

Because the club wanted to send out a message to those used to robbing us Arseall, Slackbun Rovers, Manure, Spuds etc that we are not in that unhappy position any more and we don't sit in the corner of the playground waiting for the fifth form to come over and ssip all over us as they see fit?

Because the club felt it was time to try to re-assure the fans that there will be no fire sale this season?

Because they run the show and are entitled to say whatever they want/

I expect I could find a few more but can't be Arsened.
[quote][p][bold]Saintlee72[/bold] wrote: So what the f*** is going on then? We all know if a huge offer comes in for any of our players then it only makes sense to take the money, especially if the player wants to go. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd be devastated if Lallana, Shaw or any of our top players were sold, or Spurs come in for MoPo - of course I don't want them to go but I've supported Saints for too long for us not to sell off the crown jewels as soon as a big club starts circling the good ship Southampton. We all know what's going to happen. It happens all the time at Saints. What I can't work out why Les Reed would go in front of the media and tell them that none of our team is not for sale. Why say anything at all???[/p][/quote]Because the club got fed up with people complaining that they are not getting any info on the state of play? Because the club got fed up with continuous speculation based on nothing? Because the club wanted to send out a clear message that the days when Saints sold all their crown jewels the first time a big cheque is offered are gone for ever (this doesn't mean that noone is ever for sale even the richest of clubs sells players to balance the books and the team - as we are now working our way to that status why should we be any different) Because the club wanted to send out a message to those used to robbing us Arseall, Slackbun Rovers, Manure, Spuds etc that we are not in that unhappy position any more and we don't sit in the corner of the playground waiting for the fifth form to come over and ssip all over us as they see fit? Because the club felt it was time to try to re-assure the fans that there will be no fire sale this season? Because they run the show and are entitled to say whatever they want/ I expect I could find a few more but can't be Arsened. jls217
  • Score: 1

3:48pm Wed 14 May 14

el caballo santos101 says...

my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread.

you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK.
the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club.

RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker.
RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights!

we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy.

go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me!
my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread. you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK. the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club. RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker. RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights! we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy. go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me! el caballo santos101
  • Score: 3

4:00pm Wed 14 May 14

Saintlee72 says...

Tell you what guess, I admire your optimism, I really do and I hope you are right. But it's my gut instinct if the board don't give MoPo either the reassurances he wants or the financial clout to boot, then he'll be off to Spuds quicker than you can say Daniel Levy - in that there is no question and the players will follow suit. Berate me all you want but deep down you know I'm right. You just don't want to admit it.
Tell you what guess, I admire your optimism, I really do and I hope you are right. But it's my gut instinct if the board don't give MoPo either the reassurances he wants or the financial clout to boot, then he'll be off to Spuds quicker than you can say Daniel Levy - in that there is no question and the players will follow suit. Berate me all you want but deep down you know I'm right. You just don't want to admit it. Saintlee72
  • Score: -2

4:01pm Wed 14 May 14

jls217 says...

el caballo santos101 wrote:
my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread.

you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK.
the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club.

RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker.
RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights!

we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy.

go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me!
Awwww c'mon we can treat ourselves to a little bit of I told you so as long as we don't overdo it mate.
[quote][p][bold]el caballo santos101[/bold] wrote: my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread. you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK. the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club. RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker. RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights! we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy. go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me![/p][/quote]Awwww c'mon we can treat ourselves to a little bit of I told you so as long as we don't overdo it mate. jls217
  • Score: 2

4:10pm Wed 14 May 14

K in says...

jls217 wrote:
el caballo santos101 wrote:
my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread.

you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK.
the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club.

RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker.
RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights!

we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy.

go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me!
Awwww c'mon we can treat ourselves to a little bit of I told you so as long as we don't overdo it mate.
Basically what I said ;-)

The media are treating us as if we are still the old saints instead of the financially stable one that has more ambition than to just perform a great escape each year.

When the media finally realises we are no longer that club hopefully they'll leave us alone and rumour monger about someone else!!

Has anyone got any sensible replies though as to how we are to stay within the financial fair play rules and become what the board obviously wishes us to become.

We are not allowed to spend stupid sums on players as the likes of Chelski, Manure, Man City etc do as we don't have the attendances due to the size of our ground but is it within the rules to extend the stadium to increase our income to attract 'big club' names?
[quote][p][bold]jls217[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]el caballo santos101[/bold] wrote: my god the bedwetters are having a field day on this thread. you simply cant compare the club now to then or the dark lord to RK. the dark lord openly said that he didn't want any player here who didn't want to be here, and he said that way before bridge asked for a transfer. saying that san open invitation to players and other clubs, put in a bid and all the player has to do is ask. the dark lord was running the club on a shoestring and needed to sell players to keep afloat. he basically said he was happy for the club to finish 17th every year. stating that there was no ambition meant that any player who wanted to succeed new they wouldn't do that here. different times different club. RK and others have said the players aren't for sale and we will be doing everything we can to keep them, they have said this more than once! what do people want? do you want the club to respond to every rumour and half truth that pops up in the press? NC never did this so why should RK? responding to everything would actually make the club look weaker. RK is running a financially sound club that doesn't need or want to sell players to keep a float. we actually have money to spend and have done so in the last 2 summer windows! the club have stated an ambition and that was to grow and do better than this season, and to do this with our current players with good additions. players now no that this club wants more and they have a chance of achieving something here. to claim a player needs to move to make himself financially secure is a pitiful excuse, if a player cant survive on £30-£70k a week there is something wrong with them especially if you include sponsorships and image rights! we are a totally different club now to what we were then and I think some fans have forgotten that. we were 3rd in the league and yet some fans were still saying we needed to get enough points to avoid relegation! we finished 8th with our highest pts total and yet some fans were still not happy. go and wet the bed all you like, and believe all the rumours you read if that makes you happy. me I will just wait until we have evidence of something happening. we aren't as stupid as some think and aren't `blinkered`, we know players might go but we aren't going to believe every rumour we read. there seems to be a `cant wait to be proved right` attitude to some posters and they want it all to go wrong just so they can gloat. I hope you are really happy and smug if that happens, I wont be gloating if we keep the players and MP but that's just me![/p][/quote]Awwww c'mon we can treat ourselves to a little bit of I told you so as long as we don't overdo it mate.[/p][/quote]Basically what I said ;-) The media are treating us as if we are still the old saints instead of the financially stable one that has more ambition than to just perform a great escape each year. When the media finally realises we are no longer that club hopefully they'll leave us alone and rumour monger about someone else!! Has anyone got any sensible replies though as to how we are to stay within the financial fair play rules and become what the board obviously wishes us to become. We are not allowed to spend stupid sums on players as the likes of Chelski, Manure, Man City etc do as we don't have the attendances due to the size of our ground but is it within the rules to extend the stadium to increase our income to attract 'big club' names? K in
  • Score: 3

4:17pm Wed 14 May 14

randre says...

I always thought a club could reject a transfer request from a player! Whilst the club may decide to sell (and I hope not) the least they can do is hold out for the absolute maximum amount of money. If they don't get what they believe a player is worth then the player stays, it is as simple as that.
What Saints can't be is a push over fin these negotiations and if Liverpool think £20m for Lallana is a fair price then they need to have a little think back to what they paid for Any Carrol!
Saints have complete control over what deals are done and how they are done, not Man Utd, Liverpool or the players. I also hope the players show a little bit more loyalty anyhow!
I always thought a club could reject a transfer request from a player! Whilst the club may decide to sell (and I hope not) the least they can do is hold out for the absolute maximum amount of money. If they don't get what they believe a player is worth then the player stays, it is as simple as that. What Saints can't be is a push over fin these negotiations and if Liverpool think £20m for Lallana is a fair price then they need to have a little think back to what they paid for Any Carrol! Saints have complete control over what deals are done and how they are done, not Man Utd, Liverpool or the players. I also hope the players show a little bit more loyalty anyhow! randre
  • Score: 3

4:25pm Wed 14 May 14

Saintlee72 says...

That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!.
We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.
That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!. We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen. Saintlee72
  • Score: 1

4:38pm Wed 14 May 14

andysaint says...

Actually its all very simple - we have players and manger under contract - we expect them to see those contracts out.
Why is that difficult? Its really not - if players then go and sulk then so be it - is Lallana really going to go and sulk for 3 years? Don't think so.
Be strong - stand strong - grow some balls Saints.
Actually its all very simple - we have players and manger under contract - we expect them to see those contracts out. Why is that difficult? Its really not - if players then go and sulk then so be it - is Lallana really going to go and sulk for 3 years? Don't think so. Be strong - stand strong - grow some balls Saints. andysaint
  • Score: 3

5:37pm Wed 14 May 14

el caballo santos101 says...

Saintlee72 wrote:
That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!.
We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.
uefa FFP doesn't affect us because we are not in Europe. we come under the prem leagues FFP rules are they are a lot less stringent than the eufa ones. basically clubs are allowed to have debts of £105mill over three years. these are footballing debts though and infrastructure, training ground, stadium builds etc don't come into it. our footballing debt for the first of the three years was £7mill, and that included the transfer fees. so we could run up debts of nearly £100mill over 2 years and still comply. eufa FFP is £45mill, that's why Chelski had to sell mata in jan before they could buy. mancy and psg are currently trying to negotiate a deal with eufa over their punishments, which could be anything from a fine to exclusion from eufa competitions. last comments suggested they might have their squad quota reduced.

the FFP was introduced because of pressure from the European union. platini may have introduced it but he was forced to, he is still an idiot though and will still not introduce goal line tech across Europe or in European competitions, where he prefers his extra linesman with a stick but no flag and no powers. I saw a game where a foul which would have led to a pen was right in front on this extra linesman, the ref couldn't see it nor could the real linesman but the extra linesman did nothing and the ref gave a goal kick, the least it should have been was a corner!
[quote][p][bold]Saintlee72[/bold] wrote: That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!. We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.[/p][/quote]uefa FFP doesn't affect us because we are not in Europe. we come under the prem leagues FFP rules are they are a lot less stringent than the eufa ones. basically clubs are allowed to have debts of £105mill over three years. these are footballing debts though and infrastructure, training ground, stadium builds etc don't come into it. our footballing debt for the first of the three years was £7mill, and that included the transfer fees. so we could run up debts of nearly £100mill over 2 years and still comply. eufa FFP is £45mill, that's why Chelski had to sell mata in jan before they could buy. mancy and psg are currently trying to negotiate a deal with eufa over their punishments, which could be anything from a fine to exclusion from eufa competitions. last comments suggested they might have their squad quota reduced. the FFP was introduced because of pressure from the European union. platini may have introduced it but he was forced to, he is still an idiot though and will still not introduce goal line tech across Europe or in European competitions, where he prefers his extra linesman with a stick but no flag and no powers. I saw a game where a foul which would have led to a pen was right in front on this extra linesman, the ref couldn't see it nor could the real linesman but the extra linesman did nothing and the ref gave a goal kick, the least it should have been was a corner! el caballo santos101
  • Score: 0

5:40pm Wed 14 May 14

Epsom Saint says...

I agree that when a player wants to go, he usually gets his way. But the clubs do have some power, as Liverpool showed with Suarez, Man Utd with Rooney, and Spurs weren't exactly pushovers with Modric and Bale. I know that we could lose players this summer, but it's also possible that some or even all could stay, for a variety of reasons. People can say "I told you so" if and when the rumours come true - nothing has happened yet. Until then, what's wrong with a bit of positivity?

And if we do sell, let's squeeze every last penny out of the so called big clubs.
I agree that when a player wants to go, he usually gets his way. But the clubs do have some power, as Liverpool showed with Suarez, Man Utd with Rooney, and Spurs weren't exactly pushovers with Modric and Bale. I know that we could lose players this summer, but it's also possible that some or even all could stay, for a variety of reasons. People can say "I told you so" if and when the rumours come true - nothing has happened yet. Until then, what's wrong with a bit of positivity? And if we do sell, let's squeeze every last penny out of the so called big clubs. Epsom Saint
  • Score: 1

6:41pm Wed 14 May 14

Saintlee72 says...

el caballo santos101 wrote:
Saintlee72 wrote:
That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!.
We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.
uefa FFP doesn't affect us because we are not in Europe. we come under the prem leagues FFP rules are they are a lot less stringent than the eufa ones. basically clubs are allowed to have debts of £105mill over three years. these are footballing debts though and infrastructure, training ground, stadium builds etc don't come into it. our footballing debt for the first of the three years was £7mill, and that included the transfer fees. so we could run up debts of nearly £100mill over 2 years and still comply. eufa FFP is £45mill, that's why Chelski had to sell mata in jan before they could buy. mancy and psg are currently trying to negotiate a deal with eufa over their punishments, which could be anything from a fine to exclusion from eufa competitions. last comments suggested they might have their squad quota reduced.

the FFP was introduced because of pressure from the European union. platini may have introduced it but he was forced to, he is still an idiot though and will still not introduce goal line tech across Europe or in European competitions, where he prefers his extra linesman with a stick but no flag and no powers. I saw a game where a foul which would have led to a pen was right in front on this extra linesman, the ref couldn't see it nor could the real linesman but the extra linesman did nothing and the ref gave a goal kick, the least it should have been was a corner!
I was actually getting ahead of myself there for a minute. You're absolutely right in it only affects us when playing in Europe. but that is what we are striving for - no??
What happens then?
Cross that bridge when we get to it I guess!!!!
[quote][p][bold]el caballo santos101[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saintlee72[/bold] wrote: That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!. We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.[/p][/quote]uefa FFP doesn't affect us because we are not in Europe. we come under the prem leagues FFP rules are they are a lot less stringent than the eufa ones. basically clubs are allowed to have debts of £105mill over three years. these are footballing debts though and infrastructure, training ground, stadium builds etc don't come into it. our footballing debt for the first of the three years was £7mill, and that included the transfer fees. so we could run up debts of nearly £100mill over 2 years and still comply. eufa FFP is £45mill, that's why Chelski had to sell mata in jan before they could buy. mancy and psg are currently trying to negotiate a deal with eufa over their punishments, which could be anything from a fine to exclusion from eufa competitions. last comments suggested they might have their squad quota reduced. the FFP was introduced because of pressure from the European union. platini may have introduced it but he was forced to, he is still an idiot though and will still not introduce goal line tech across Europe or in European competitions, where he prefers his extra linesman with a stick but no flag and no powers. I saw a game where a foul which would have led to a pen was right in front on this extra linesman, the ref couldn't see it nor could the real linesman but the extra linesman did nothing and the ref gave a goal kick, the least it should have been was a corner![/p][/quote]I was actually getting ahead of myself there for a minute. You're absolutely right in it only affects us when playing in Europe. but that is what we are striving for - no?? What happens then? Cross that bridge when we get to it I guess!!!! Saintlee72
  • Score: 0

8:16pm Wed 14 May 14

bjwg14 says...

Lallana has done his time, stuck with us through the worst and captained us to 8th in the country. I wouldn't begrudge him a lucrative move if he wants it. Combine the cash, champions league football and the fact he's not getting any younger who can blame him? Obviously he can't force a move as he's on a long contract, thankfully most of them are. The Suarez situation is a case in point. But if the right money is offered and he wants to go I wish him good luck and will always look for his name on the England team sheet.
Lallana has done his time, stuck with us through the worst and captained us to 8th in the country. I wouldn't begrudge him a lucrative move if he wants it. Combine the cash, champions league football and the fact he's not getting any younger who can blame him? Obviously he can't force a move as he's on a long contract, thankfully most of them are. The Suarez situation is a case in point. But if the right money is offered and he wants to go I wish him good luck and will always look for his name on the England team sheet. bjwg14
  • Score: 0

8:49pm Wed 14 May 14

jls217 says...

bjwg14 wrote:
Lallana has done his time, stuck with us through the worst and captained us to 8th in the country. I wouldn't begrudge him a lucrative move if he wants it. Combine the cash, champions league football and the fact he's not getting any younger who can blame him? Obviously he can't force a move as he's on a long contract, thankfully most of them are. The Suarez situation is a case in point. But if the right money is offered and he wants to go I wish him good luck and will always look for his name on the England team sheet.
If the deal is what Saints want then fine grant him his transfer if he really wants to go and let him go with our blessing. If it is not good for the club then he has to see out his contract which expires in 2018. Unless he's injured he will be a lot more expensive in 2017 and we should sell at the end of the 2016 season.
I repeat it's only a goer if it's what the club wants. If the player did not intend to be here unti 2018 he should have considered that before accepting his last contract. If Saints want to offer him a better contract and it's accepted then fine but no player (even LeTiss) was, is or ever will be bigger than the club itself of the sum of the squad.
[quote][p][bold]bjwg14[/bold] wrote: Lallana has done his time, stuck with us through the worst and captained us to 8th in the country. I wouldn't begrudge him a lucrative move if he wants it. Combine the cash, champions league football and the fact he's not getting any younger who can blame him? Obviously he can't force a move as he's on a long contract, thankfully most of them are. The Suarez situation is a case in point. But if the right money is offered and he wants to go I wish him good luck and will always look for his name on the England team sheet.[/p][/quote]If the deal is what Saints want then fine grant him his transfer if he really wants to go and let him go with our blessing. If it is not good for the club then he has to see out his contract which expires in 2018. Unless he's injured he will be a lot more expensive in 2017 and we should sell at the end of the 2016 season. I repeat it's only a goer if it's what the club wants. If the player did not intend to be here unti 2018 he should have considered that before accepting his last contract. If Saints want to offer him a better contract and it's accepted then fine but no player (even LeTiss) was, is or ever will be bigger than the club itself of the sum of the squad. jls217
  • Score: 1

10:20pm Wed 14 May 14

montecristosaint says...

Saintlee72 wrote:
That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!.
We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.
where on earth do you get that reasoning. Saints and all other clubs are supposed to live within their means, in other words not spend more than a small margin above what they earn. Owners can invest further proceeds up to 45 million euros Man City have certainly breached those rules and I would argue Man Utd policy of paying silly money for new recruits will bring them into breach of the same regulations before long. We do not actually know for certain whether any bid s have been placed for Shaw and Lallana, it may be just tripe from the gutter press. No bids have been confirmed by any of the clubs concerned
[quote][p][bold]Saintlee72[/bold] wrote: That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!. We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.[/p][/quote]where on earth do you get that reasoning. Saints and all other clubs are supposed to live within their means, in other words not spend more than a small margin above what they earn. Owners can invest further proceeds up to 45 million euros Man City have certainly breached those rules and I would argue Man Utd policy of paying silly money for new recruits will bring them into breach of the same regulations before long. We do not actually know for certain whether any bid s have been placed for Shaw and Lallana, it may be just tripe from the gutter press. No bids have been confirmed by any of the clubs concerned montecristosaint
  • Score: 0

10:28pm Wed 14 May 14

bjwg14 says...

If I'm not mistaken the recent contract renewals safeguard the asset. Therefore, the player can still be sold if all parties agree and the rest of his contract is honoured. If the player submits an official transfer request he forfeits the remaining pay on his contract usually.
If I'm not mistaken the recent contract renewals safeguard the asset. Therefore, the player can still be sold if all parties agree and the rest of his contract is honoured. If the player submits an official transfer request he forfeits the remaining pay on his contract usually. bjwg14
  • Score: 1

9:09am Thu 15 May 14

jls217 says...

montecristosaint wrote:
Saintlee72 wrote:
That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!.
We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.
where on earth do you get that reasoning. Saints and all other clubs are supposed to live within their means, in other words not spend more than a small margin above what they earn. Owners can invest further proceeds up to 45 million euros Man City have certainly breached those rules and I would argue Man Utd policy of paying silly money for new recruits will bring them into breach of the same regulations before long. We do not actually know for certain whether any bid s have been placed for Shaw and Lallana, it may be just tripe from the gutter press. No bids have been confirmed by any of the clubs concerned
Of course it won't take long for the bean counters and lawyers to find a way round the FFP and any other restriction put on the flow of cash into and out of any club in the world.
One way to increase (possibly - I'm just a numpty from the south coast not a bean counter so I might be way wrong on this) a clubs revenue would be to have the club own non football assets, not in a separate company but directly under the umbrella of for example Southampton FC - So Saints could own a thousand flats, 10 old peoples homes, a chain of sports shops, etc, etc, etc.
I'm sure someone on here will know the legalities/feasibili
ty/credibility of this sort of activity.
[quote][p][bold]montecristosaint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Saintlee72[/bold] wrote: That's just it - we cant compete with the Arsenals, Utd's and City's of this world. Unfortunately we are not a big enough club. FFP is the biggest pile of bureaucratic bullsh*t I have ever heard of. It means clubs like ours can never compete. Another one of Platini's masterstrokes!!! What a dick he is!!!!. We have a multi-billionaire owner who allegedly wants to invest in the team, but she cant because UEFA ( AKA the football gestapo) say it's not fair. If that's the case PSG and Monaco should be fined a record amount. Oh, thats right, they're French teams so that wont happen.[/p][/quote]where on earth do you get that reasoning. Saints and all other clubs are supposed to live within their means, in other words not spend more than a small margin above what they earn. Owners can invest further proceeds up to 45 million euros Man City have certainly breached those rules and I would argue Man Utd policy of paying silly money for new recruits will bring them into breach of the same regulations before long. We do not actually know for certain whether any bid s have been placed for Shaw and Lallana, it may be just tripe from the gutter press. No bids have been confirmed by any of the clubs concerned[/p][/quote]Of course it won't take long for the bean counters and lawyers to find a way round the FFP and any other restriction put on the flow of cash into and out of any club in the world. One way to increase (possibly - I'm just a numpty from the south coast not a bean counter so I might be way wrong on this) a clubs revenue would be to have the club own non football assets, not in a separate company but directly under the umbrella of for example Southampton FC - So Saints could own a thousand flats, 10 old peoples homes, a chain of sports shops, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure someone on here will know the legalities/feasibili ty/credibility of this sort of activity. jls217
  • Score: 0

11:41am Thu 15 May 14

Alicesdad says...

The bullying hand of censorship is much in evidence this morning.

Feeble rag !
The bullying hand of censorship is much in evidence this morning. Feeble rag ! Alicesdad
  • Score: 0

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