The Health Service spends around £50m per year on paying for translators for people who cannot be bothered (and have no incentive) to learn English, or who have no right to be here anyway. This money could have paid for the drugs for this lady and thousands of others. Worse, Some NHS departments eg maternity, endoscopy - are made massively inneficient because of the need to relay communication to a non english speaker through an intermediary. Do we know how many booked procedures are cancelled because an appropriate translator was not available? No,because for some insane reason it is one of those statistics that might be construed as "racist". What is the Government's solution? As always it is to make a statement then do nothing at all because they are terrified of the half dozen people in this country who somehow thinks it is offending somebody's human rights to make them learn english or take responsibility for their own ignorance.

This whole saga is a disgrace, but the one thing that it does illuminate is the fact that life is considered of a lower priority than cash. Just what does constitute an exceptional case? And why should anyone have to be considered an exceptional case before they can be given life extending treatment? If the treatment is available then there should be no question about its being used. We are going back to the 19th century when only the middle and upper classes could afford medical treatment.

Far from being abandoned by the NHS, the list of treatments received so far is pretty impressive. Certainly got her money's worth if you want to balance up contributions versus costs.

It would be nice if every medical possibility could be explored to heal every ailment, but unfortunately the country does not have a never ending gold mine from which to draw resources. The reality is there is a constrained budget and decisions have to be made.

So what would I do in this case? I would sell my house. I would sell my car. I would ask my family to give me the money by whatever means they could (earn, sell things, borrow it). Then I would get the treatment. Because if I really wanted 3 years more life and expected somebody to pay for it, I ought to be prepared to do the same for myself.

But then if I didn't want to leave my family in debt or out on the street, well that's another tough decision made given the constraints of a limited budget....

10 Minute Man wrote:
Far from being abandoned by the NHS, the list of treatments received so far is pretty impressive. Certainly got her money's worth if you want to balance up contributions versus costs. It would be nice if every medical possibility could be explored to heal every ailment, but unfortunately the country does not have a never ending gold mine from which to draw resources. The reality is there is a constrained budget and decisions have to be made. So what would I do in this case? I would sell my house. I would sell my car. I would ask my family to give me the money by whatever means they could (earn, sell things, borrow it). Then I would get the treatment. Because if I really wanted 3 years more life and expected somebody to pay for it, I ought to be prepared to do the same for myself. But then if I didn't want to leave my family in debt or out on the street, well that's another tough decision made given the constraints of a limited budget....

Thats a bit harsh.
Much as a family would like to help, perhaps she has been unselfish and refused, wanting them to protect their assets for their future.
The point is National Insurance contributions, taxes etc have been paid, which go towards health care, and the time it is needed, the system fails her.
There should not be a price put on life, or the quality of life and the money should be found for her, and the others.

Perhaps all these authorities, councils, health care providers, governments etc ought to stop their unnecessary spending, quangos, providing for those that scrounge on benefits, illegal immigrants etc and look after those that deserve it.


Maybe a good case for the Human Rights Act.

pauı b wrote:

Andy Locks Heath wrote: The Health Service spends around £50m per year on paying for translators for people who cannot be bothered (and have no incentive) to learn English, or who have no right to be here anyway. This money could have paid for the drugs for this lady and thousands of others. Worse, Some NHS departments eg maternity, endoscopy - are made massively inneficient because of the need to relay communication to a non english speaker through an intermediary. Do we know how many booked procedures are cancelled because an appropriate translator was not available? No,because for some insane reason it is one of those statistics that might be construed as "racist". What is the Government's solution? As always it is to make a statement then do nothing at all because they are terrified of the half dozen people in this country who somehow thinks it is offending somebody's human rights to make them learn english or take responsibility for their own ignorance.

Do you never go on holiday you racist

Stating well known and documented facts can hardly be termed as racist.

pauı b wrote:

Andy Locks Heath wrote:
The Health Service spends around £50m per year on paying for translators for people who cannot be bothered (and have no incentive) to learn English, or who have no right to be here anyway. This money could have paid for the drugs for this lady and thousands of others. Worse, Some NHS departments eg maternity, endoscopy - are made massively inneficient because of the need to relay communication to a non english speaker through an intermediary. Do we know how many booked procedures are cancelled because an appropriate translator was not available? No,because for some insane reason it is one of those statistics that might be construed as "racist". What is the Government's solution? As always it is to make a statement then do nothing at all because they are terrified of the half dozen people in this country who somehow thinks it is offending somebody's human rights to make them learn english or take responsibility for their own ignorance.

Do you never go on holiday you racist

Yes you unthinking dope I do, and and the last time I did my daughter had an accident requiring 22 stitches. The French medico did not provide a translator and we had to communicate using our basic french. Also, dummy it is called a holiday because we came home again, and if we moved to France we would learn French. And finally, what has language to do with race? The need to communicate effectively is the most fundamental tenet of a working society. Define what is racist in what I said or apologise if you have the guts to, that is.

hulla baloo wrote:

pauı b wrote:

Andy Locks Heath wrote: The Health Service spends around £50m per year on paying for translators for people who cannot be bothered (and have no incentive) to learn English, or who have no right to be here anyway. This money could have paid for the drugs for this lady and thousands of others. Worse, Some NHS departments eg maternity, endoscopy - are made massively inneficient because of the need to relay communication to a non english speaker through an intermediary. Do we know how many booked procedures are cancelled because an appropriate translator was not available? No,because for some insane reason it is one of those statistics that might be construed as "racist". What is the Government's solution? As always it is to make a statement then do nothing at all because they are terrified of the half dozen people in this country who somehow thinks it is offending somebody's human rights to make them learn english or take responsibility for their own ignorance.

Do you never go on holiday you racist

Stating well known and documented facts can hardly be termed as racist.

Dont always agree with Andy..but....you are spot on

Unhappily, lifesaving drugs are like a raft in the middle of an ocean and a boat load of survivors trying to reach it. There are a raft of patients with unmentionable ailments - they know its there but they cannot reach it. But as Andy said there are millions paid out on interpreters and like solicitors they charge a bomb. Its time PCT came down to basics - if there is a chance to help these patients - THEN DO IT. Interpretation can be hired by the Immigrants and/or their families and friends, and if not, then put them into abeyance until this terrible situation can be resolved - help now PCT - you are acting like God.

goard

unfortunately the country does not have a never ending gold mine from which to draw resources.

Then maybe it's about time the government stopped pretending it has, no?

Thank you everyone for backing me up. Out of interest there are a large number of incidents not only in the hospitals but in surgeries, dentists, courts, benefits offices, businesses and so on, and a large amount of expensive infrastructure is lined up ready then wasted because the subject - the very person for whom all this is supposed to benefit- turns up and doesn't understand a word said to them, or the wrong translator turns up, or the right translator doesn't turn up at all, or the subject doesn't turn up because the standard letter sent to them wasn't translated first! This is the elephant in the corner of massive inefficiency in the NHS and elsewhere that we are throwing money at, but which Paul B thinks should not be discussed because it's "racist". We are trying to cater for an ever growing number of people to have an interpreter more or less permanently assigned whenever and wherever they want to interface to the machinery of society. If a health service department loses 5% of its efficiency then it has to be 5.5% larger to deliver the same service and so does the bureaucracy supporting it. As Goard says, all this wasted money could help thousands more people reach the NHS liferaft including this poor lady. Isn't that more important Paul?

10 minute man
you disgust me,I am the son of Linda,& yes we have tried to fund raise,8 of my friends & i ran a sponsored 10km run @ Bleinheim Palace in October this year raising on the behalf of Cancer Research UK,this is to help fund the preventions and treatments of all other cancers,so to put you right WE HAVE TRIED

Andy L/Heath
That's exactly the reason many of these "sensitive" issues aren't addressed, because some tw@t throws in the racist card.
I have lived abroad and have always undestood that any lack of understanding of laws and language are my problem, not the host country. The UK cannot afford to continue throwing money away at the cost of treatment for people like this lady, and it is a problem that will get worse - drugs, especially new cancer ones, will become more expensive, and with the current climate there'll be no extra money in the coffers; but one of the areas you can guarantee won't be cut (but will cost more) is translation services.
Unfortunatley anyone who suggest cuts in this area will be labled a racist so no-one in authority will.

m lemon wrote:
10 minute man
you disgust me,I am the son of Linda,& yes we have tried to fund raise,8 of my friends & i ran a sponsored 10km run @ Bleinheim Palace in October this year raising on the behalf of Cancer Research UK,this is to help fund the preventions and treatments of all other cancers,so to put you right WE HAVE TRIED

Well yes of course you are disgusted and cannot possibly be objective about the appalling illness which your mother is suffering from. Its horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

You have clearly done a lot of charity fundraising which is very impressive and you should surely feel proud for your contribution.

However this is different from what I mentioned which is *directly funding* the drug - i.e. doing whatever you could to raise the money and spend it on the medicine. I don't know if you have done this, or your mother has, or anybody else. But it would be entirely their choice. For example lets say I've got 100K in equity in my house. I could sell in a hurry and possibly get 80K in cash afterwards. Rent for a bit. Spend 30K on medicine. Might live a few more years, enjoy seeing my family grow up. Hopefully leave them enough for a deposit or some security. Not quite as much as if I hadn't spent the money, but this would be my/our choice: We have 100K of assets, cost of treatment will be 30K. Family might have a harder time after I've gone. Need to decide based on available resources.

Miles Sway wrote:
Andy L/Heath That's exactly the reason many of these "sensitive" issues aren't addressed, because some tw@t throws in the racist card. I have lived abroad and have always undestood that any lack of understanding of laws and language are my problem, not the host country. The UK cannot afford to continue throwing money away at the cost of treatment for people like this lady, and it is a problem that will get worse - drugs, especially new cancer ones, will become more expensive, and with the current climate there'll be no extra money in the coffers; but one of the areas you can guarantee won't be cut (but will cost more) is translation services. Unfortunatley anyone who suggest cuts in this area will be labled a racist so no-one in authority will.

Agreed.
I currently live abroad and have made an effort to learn the language, customs and ways of the locals.
In no way have I come here expecting them to change for me, nor will they.
Their reasoning is if you come here, you live by our ways, if not, you know the way out.
UK should be the same.

Give the lady her drugs please.

The problem is, there are so many problems wanting a resolve - where do we begin. The NHS, I say to hell with PCT, like the wheel clampers, they are a body of people who have an over abundance of 'know it all, and to hell with the Know nothing brigade'. There is a serious situation of these people given the 'powers of god' and it is all wrong, if we we are not careful we will become a State We the, god forbid, the saddos of society actually have an opinion. I would like to assert myself - we, the people, are horrified at the turn of events, we, the people will only suffer so much and then watch out - we can only take so much and you all, the so called 'governing bodies' will disintergrate. dont drive us too far.
goard

This is really hard. I am sure if this were a member of my family I too would be outraged.

But it is for cases like this that NICE was set up. It looks into new medicines and decides whether or not they are effective. The alternative is that everybody with a life threatening or incapacitating illness looks at every possible treatment on the grounds that it might just work. The drug companies would love a situation like this. And when you look at it from the point of view of the individual this makes perfect sense but if you look at it for a national health service it is unsustainable. NICE decides on the basis of clinical evidence deliberately remotely from the emotion of individual cases.

And Andy Locks Heath, you're setting up a bit of a straw man argument. I have no idea whether your figures on the costs of translation are true but you could pick any area of government spending (police, education, defence, pensions etc) and say that we'd be better off spending it on medicine for x. And, of course, at an individual level that will make sense because nobody wants to see anybody die for lack of treatment.

Running the NHS requires hard choices. Should we put more money into neonatal care or into geriatric care? Should we invest in disease prevention or more high-tech treatment? Should we build large hospitals with a concentration of expertise or have local community hospitals dealing only with the basics? Should we fund every drug regardless of its effectiveness or should we concentrate on treating the maximum number of people?

None of these are easy choices are they?

AJF - your points are valid and there are always difficult decisions when you've expensive treatments and a budget that is fixed; somewhere the line must be drawn.
It isn't just drugs, there have been cases where operations are available overseas but not in the UK - should the NHS fund them? probably not, but I'd think differently if I were the one being denied it due to cost.
Andy's point, and I agree completely is that a huge amount of ££'s (£50mill I'd read elsewhere too) is wasted purely on translation services - that's £50mill lost on treatment where it should be used; a lot Linda Lemons perhaps being saved, but it's sidetracked to help purely non-english speaking patients.
Now, whilst I feel sympathy for people who don't or can't understand English (and I wouldn't suggest denying them care) if they live in the UK and are entitled to NHS services surely the onus of speaking English or having family/friends to do so for them falls to them, not to the NHS?
It isn't going to solve any issues re NICE recognised drugs etc but I'd rather see one life saved than leaflets printed in Urdu and 20 other languages!

m lemon wrote:
10 minute man you disgust me,I am the son of Linda,& yes we have tried to fund raise,8 of my friends & i ran a sponsored 10km run @ Bleinheim Palace in October this year raising on the behalf of Cancer Research UK,this is to help fund the preventions and treatments of all other cancers,so to put you right WE HAVE TRIED

firstly, I am very sympathetic to your family's problem, it is so sad and unfair. However, if it is clear the PCT are not going to budge you have to be focused and continue your efforts to raise funds. This is rhetorical but how much did you raise in the run? If it was a respectable amount, do more. If it were my mother I would do a run every bloody day if that's what it took.

Get in touch with as many local cancer charities as possible and see if they can help.

Also, I'm sure it goes without saying but if your Mum is a fighter which she obviosuly is, she will last longer than any Doctor predicts. The fight ends when she gives up.

I wish you all the best of luck. If I were a rich man I would gladly give you the money myself. I am not so can't but I can run....organise another run or similar and I will be there.

Good post AJF. The figure was given in a written response to a parliamentary question. It was quoted in several papers though I don't remember who asked it. It is a straw man but like Miles I want to publicise that all these funds squandered by some quango or other require a choice to be made at the expense of some other service or facility.